tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207237618509440496.post6439444295052347060..comments2023-03-28T04:32:18.124-04:00Comments on Witless Prattle: ANTI-HERO WEEK #6--WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED?Kazekagehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07499536996058174109noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207237618509440496.post-91271912555961657782009-06-20T21:19:35.207-04:002009-06-20T21:19:35.207-04:00I don't know as we ever do in as much as the t...I don't know as we ever do in as much as the trope recombines with the reactive element and becomes a new trope. A bit like an ever-evolving strain of virus. :)Kazekagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499536996058174109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207237618509440496.post-80565150193180318092009-06-20T08:58:37.550-04:002009-06-20T08:58:37.550-04:00But do we ever really see a restoration of the ori...But do we ever really see a restoration of the original trope following the codification of its subversion? Nothing comes to mind at the moment...Diana Kingston-Gabaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06606122690934557406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207237618509440496.post-5222592373576240962009-06-07T20:04:13.923-04:002009-06-07T20:04:13.923-04:00Well, counterrevolutions always follow revolutions...Well, counterrevolutions always follow revolutions, don't they? The trope gets established, and is then subverted in reaction to our familiarity with it, and the reaction itself eventually becomes a trope and is reacted to and played against and so forth and so on . . .it's just how stories (and thinking about stories) evolves over time.Kazekagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499536996058174109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207237618509440496.post-63169386580329335082009-06-07T15:16:17.382-04:002009-06-07T15:16:17.382-04:00And like we've said, we've become so famil...And like we've said, we've become so familiar with the basic tropes that it's just not enough to follow conventions anymore. There's no satisfaction in seeing a story unfold <i>exactly</i> the way you figured it would.Diana Kingston-Gabaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06606122690934557406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207237618509440496.post-64601235332746514302009-05-31T13:20:34.096-04:002009-05-31T13:20:34.096-04:00Trust me--it wasn't as exciting as it seemed. It w...Trust me--it wasn't as exciting as it seemed. It was so decompressed its season sets are measured in epochs.<br /><br />Yeah--it gives you the freedom to slide some conventions around and generally play with the usual good/evil dynamic and audience expectations of same.<br /><br />Like gangbusters! :)Kazekagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499536996058174109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207237618509440496.post-41637713143781214382009-05-31T02:57:59.899-04:002009-05-31T02:57:59.899-04:00Given the show's propensity for annihilating its c...Given the show's propensity for annihilating its cast members one at a time, I'm still shocked it lasted as long as it did.<br /><br />And there are all sorts of tricks you can play with that format: for example, "Erfworld" seems to have the traditional Rebel Alliance versus Evil Overlord set-up, but your protagonist (generally a nice guy) is leading the "Evil" faction, who aren't really that evil, and the Alliance leader turns out to be kind of a douche...<br /><br />Does <A HREF="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilerThanThou" REL="nofollow">this</A> work?Diana Kingston-Gabaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06606122690934557406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207237618509440496.post-87029232704877955872009-05-23T21:36:05.574-04:002009-05-23T21:36:05.574-04:00Actually, it got even more bloated and enervating....Actually, it got even more bloated and enervating. It would have been best for all concerned had the show finished with the second series because they did everything possible to drag everything out as long as possible.<br /><br />Very true--in fact, if you have a cast of bastards, sometimes slanting them against characters who are basically good can provoke a lot of very useful conflict in both groups of characters. It's a useful arrow in the quiver, I find.<br /><br />Couldn't find anything, but that could owe to TvTropes rather clumsy search function as much as an actual lack of the term of art.Kazekagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499536996058174109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207237618509440496.post-17103775296291164822009-05-23T10:14:10.324-04:002009-05-23T10:14:10.324-04:00Sounds dreadful, though I understand it improved c...Sounds dreadful, though I understand it improved considerably in later seasons.<br /><br />I think it has to do with a basic balance in terms of characterization: even a Crapsack World has to have some redeeming factor (ie: you could, at least initially, find basically good people in Miller's Sin City). If your only point is that all people suck and the world is a cesspool, well, you get ASSBAR.<br /><br />Well? What's the result? :)Diana Kingston-Gabaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06606122690934557406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207237618509440496.post-15050017567502459292009-05-16T23:02:00.000-04:002009-05-16T23:02:00.000-04:00Actually, the first season set the tone for his ch...Actually, the first season set the tone for his character--random moments of insightful character development (inevitably coming when you are just about to give up on the damn show) coupled with the most self-indulgent decompression this side of the Jemas era.<br /><br />That makes a certain amount of sense. The challenge, I find, is how do you make it interesting and not just Miller-esque "let's wallow in awfulness like a pig in slop."<br /><br />I'm gonna go look now. Surely someone's thought of it before me. :)Kazekagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499536996058174109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207237618509440496.post-17224703143269828642009-05-16T14:06:00.000-04:002009-05-16T14:06:00.000-04:00I always thought Tony Soprano was a dreadfully fla...I always thought Tony Soprano was a dreadfully flat character, but then, I only followed about half of the first season of that show. ;)<br /><br />It's a mutation, I think, of the classic anti-hero formula: whatever the personality defects and flaws of the protagonist, the world around him is so fundamentally broken that any action he takes against it will, by default, earn the sympathy of the reader.<br /><br />It has everything else, why not that? ;)Diana Kingston-Gabaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06606122690934557406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207237618509440496.post-39621878032210703722009-05-03T12:06:00.000-04:002009-05-03T12:06:00.000-04:00There are a couple ways, I think. "The Sopranos" t...There are a couple ways, I think. "The Sopranos" tended to make the violence the character did a manifestation of his own inner anger, so while it was ghastly and over the top, since you'd followed the process as an audience member, it seemed to be more . . .comprehensible isn't the word I'm looking for but close enough.<br /><br />I think my approach may fall into the "Dexter" category now that you mention. GMB's lead character ends up being the protagonist mainly because 90% of the other characters are worse. <br /><br /> I wonder if TV tropes has a law of comparative evil?Kazekagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499536996058174109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207237618509440496.post-46480284433140758812009-05-03T09:24:00.000-04:002009-05-03T09:24:00.000-04:00I think the key to writing a well-rounded anti-her...I think the key to writing a well-rounded anti-hero or Villain Protagonist is to have some kind of mitigating system in place that doesn't cancel out the character's amoral/immoral actions, but prevents the reader from being completely unsympathetic. Showtime's "Dexter" is an interesting example: he's a serial killer who has no qualms about manipulating the people around him to stay in the clear, but he also preys exclusively on murderers. And, of course, the tiniest bit of humanity occasionally shines through his sociopathy. You find yourself cheering him on despite being unnerved (at best) by what he does.Diana Kingston-Gabaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06606122690934557406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207237618509440496.post-57366373597788812932009-04-30T20:45:00.000-04:002009-04-30T20:45:00.000-04:00Well, I kinda wanted to play with that a bit when ...Well, I kinda wanted to play with that a bit when I started GMB--could I make a story about a guy who, even before you get to the evil stuff he does, isn't necessarily sympathetic, could I get an audience to follow him, especially if I <I>never promise to redeem him?</I> The stuff about him having a weird gestalt of Superman and Batman's origins was totally accidental. :)<br /><br />I think it just about works the way we did it--it wouldn't have lasted much longer than it did, but I think it just about gets it done. :)Kazekagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499536996058174109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8207237618509440496.post-21429479842704185932009-04-29T20:48:00.000-04:002009-04-29T20:48:00.000-04:00As we've discussed in the past, I think there is a...As we've discussed in the past, I think there is a tendency among a lot of people to equate "protaginist" with "hero". They're not necessarily synomous. Call it an absence of critical reading (and thinking) or another larger lack of vision, but people feel the need to root for the main guy. Even if he's not very nice.<br /><br />It's a complex situation, and I'm acutely aware of it, having your character running around in an unlikely scenario for him. It's why I'm glad I was able to get your input, as I hit close to the mark maybe one try out of every ten. Your vision was invaluable.C. Elamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00284263547435956344noreply@blogger.com