At it's core, the Justice League is an inherently bulletproof concept--the world's greatest superheroes (plus Aquaman) gathered together. It's curious then how often comic creators fail to "get it," whether by packing the team with Avengers-esque "single characters who don't work well outside of team books," packing the team with complete unknowns, or just generally having them spend issue after excruciating issue littering the page with interior monologues and bogging down the book with interpersonal soap opera.
Likewise, the Crime Syndicate is an equally bulletproof concept--they're the Justice League, only evil and on a planet that is also evil. Naturally, Comics are fairly happy to barely use them, as they've only had very notable appearances (in my lifetime, anyhow) at the beginning of Crisis on Infinite Earths (in which they died in an oddly powerful moment) JLA: Earth 2 (which formed the basis for the modern-day Crime Syndicate) and JLA/Avengers (which kinda echoed the beginning of Crisis, but wasn't quite as powerful, but was a clever roman a clef on the aforementioned scene) as I guess they don't fit into all the metatextual navel-gazing that they feel should naturally go on in a comic called Justice League.
Thankfully, as these predilections went into overdrive over the last decade, we had the DCAU, also known as "If you liked DC comic characters, but hated DC Comics, well, there's this." Funnily enough in the decade-plus run of the DCAU, they'd never done a Crime Syndicate story. the closest they'd come was the Justice League episode "A Better World," wherein the Justice Lords took over their parallel earth, Squadron Supreme style. It was a great pair of episodes, true, but it wasn't the the JLA vs. Crime Syndicate story you knew they could do.
The plan was, as I understand it, that when Justice League transitioned into Justice League Unlimited, there was supposed to be a direct to video movie bridging the two series which would, in fact, feature the Crime Syndicate fight. It didn't end up happening--at the time, at least.
The idea was filed away, however, and now it's time has come around again. However, it had been a few years, and Batman: Brave and the Bold had already done a pretty awesome two-part Crime Syndicate episode, so the question remained--was there room for two takes on the same concept?
Sure. While JUSTICE LEAGUE: CRISIS ON TWO EARTHS doesn't exactly hide it's origins as a Justice League finale/JLU continuation (seriously--it doesn't take a lot of finessing to see where this slots in, despite the different voice cast and animation style) it does exactly what it says on the box--you get the Crime Syndicate vs the Justice League, and a pretty decently-told story in between all the fights as well.
It all starts with Lex Luthor and the Joker of an alternate Earth (who are the good guys this time out) stealing the macguffin from a heavily guarded fortress and getting the evil versions of Hawkgirl and Martian Manhunter (who Edgar Rice Burroughs fans will quite enjoy) the Joker blows up those two and just in time for the main Crime Syndicate to show up, Lex vanishes to another Earth. Cue credits.
Things move pretty briskly from here on in--there's only 75 minutes in the movie, after all-- and the battles lines are swiftly drawn. The Crime Syndicate has risen to such power on Luthor's Earth that the governments of the world have basically taken a hands-off approach and lives in fear of the Syndicate. Luthor needs the League's muscle to take down the Crime Syndicate in such a way as to inspire the people of his earth to stand up for them--it's a pretty subtle but well thought-out idea that gives the notion that one ass-kicking isn't going to solve everything.
There's little clever touches all through the movie, actually--for one, the notion that the Crime Syndicate is actually a syndicate, wherein the five main baddies control legions of associated baddies (Superwoman leads an evil and suspiciously Marvelman-like Marvel Family, Owlman leads warped versions of the Outsiders) Deathstroke is the President of the United States, Ultraman, the leader of the Crime Syndicate sounds suspiciously like he's from North Jersey (not that I'm implying anything) and in an utterly throwaway recurring bit Wonder Woman gets her Invisible Jet.
None of these things, mercifully detract from the main point of the story--Luthor's discovery of parallel worlds has an unintended ripple effect. Owlman's built a bomb capable of destroying their Earth to use as leverage against world governments and finally take full control. However, with the discovery of travel to parallel Earths, Owlman has decided, as every decision one way or another is played out over an infinite number of universe, that the only decision that would matter, would be to find the Earth that started everything (Earth-Prime) detonate the bomb there and cause the whole thing to collapse.
So that's the basic plot in place, all that's left are the fights, and they're pretty tremendous. You don't want for action in any of them and they're clever enough twists in each of them (Batman vs. Superwoman and Green lantern vs. Halo come to mind) that it doesn't get monotonous.
In short, it's an effective Justice League story--with enough enduring elements to be classic, but with enough fresh spins on the familiar to be contemporary at one and the same time. Of course, this does raise the question of why comics, its native medium, can't seem to manage stories like this anymore.
Bottom line, y'all--for $20 at most, you get an awesome lead feature, the aforementioned "A Better World" and a handful of previews. If you lament the current mess that comics, and Justice League comics in particular have become--and you're certainly not alone there--well, here's something you'll really enjoy.
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The Crime Syndicate truthfully didn't get a lot of use leading up to CRISIS. Beyond their debut in that 1964 two-parter, they only functioned as a group in the 1982 JLA/JSA/All-Star Squadron crossover. Portions of the group showed up in Secret Society of Super-Villains (2 issues), DC Comics Presents (1 annual), and a cameo or two. That's all in 20 years or so. I don't get it either. Seemed like a natural to me even then.
I'm glad this one met with your approval. Did you see the one with the Spectre bonus cartoon? I am super-curious about that, too.
C-Elam with the knowledge, y'all. :)
Yeah, it does kinda seem like a "gimmie," doesn't it? Sure solves the problem of "what do you have the World's Greatest Superheroes go up against that puts their opponents on equal footing."
It's a sheet cake made of awesome and victory, man. I didn't get the 2-disc set (because I am an unctuous child and can't wait a week) but from what I've heard, the Spectre thing is good . . .lord knows, they should be able to get away with a lot with the PG-13 . . .I mean, he'll at least be able to turn them into sand or glass or something. ;)
Bwa! I should fess up that I actually know this without looking because 1) I once owned every one of those comics cited (not anymore, I think) and 2) there was a period when I was OBSESSED with the Crime Syndicate. To the point that, I remember making my own comics of them because they were used so little. I doubt any of those masterpieces have survived the years. I was probably 10.
I would pay cash money to see a cartoon with the Spectre doing the giant scissors thing.
Oh, and my word verification is "insist", which is sort of...mundane, isn't it?
That period must have been shockingly brief, even counting that time in the 90's the Syndicate was all bald and googly-eyed.
I have a feeling it's in the offing--it's too iconic a moment not to finally do it in the comic.
On Earth-3 it was probably "compel." :)
While I'm quite a fan of good Mirror Universe stories, this one didn't quite work for me, for several reasons.
I'd always thought the best part of "Earth-2" was that even the concept of cause and effect was inverted, and the League had about the same chances of winning on CSA-Earth as any random villain would in their own reality. So it was pretty disappointing to see the good guys win so easily, especially with that cheesy "All The President's Men" bit at the end.
Also, setting aside the fact that none of the Syndicate members are actually counterparts of the League (which, fair enough, they did that with the Justice Lords), they're not really developed at all, are they? Word of God identifies Superwoman as Mary Marvel, and that's about it. Even Owlman is just your generic omnicidal maniac cypher.
And finally: Batman indirectly kills both Owlman and Johnny Quick. I don't mind much when it's the Burton/Nolan version, but the Timm/Dini one? Really?
Well, in defence of the Marines coming in at the ending--they'd said previously that the threat of a nuclear response was the only leverage the normals had against superhumans (the thing that the bomb was supposed to negate) and they'd come in loaded for bear, with nukes, so it didn't feel too "are you kidding me" to me. Also, paralleling the DCAU's Justice League--once again, if a parallel League loses its Flash, it's pretty much all over for them.
As to whether it was an even contest, well when you bring in someone from an alternate Earth, doesn't that upset the inversion dynamic slightly? I'm finessing things a bit, but that might explain things? I guess?
Well, I thought Owlman was more "hypercompetent Batman-type who is, as Batman is smarter than everyone in the League, the craziest dude in the Syndicate. I think you can infer a lot from his "destroying everything is ultimately the only decision of consequence due to the nature of existence giving every choice an equal chance" viewpoint that's a bit more concrete (in that it's actually explained in ways other than just "anti-life" and "I heart Death." But then, one only has 75 minutes, and ultimately, between the fisticuffs between the Justice League and the Crime Syndicate and the secret history of Earth-3 . . .well, there must be a payoff on what's promised.
Well, there is a question of whether this is the Timm/Dini DCAU, and Crisis on 2 Earth not really declaring one way or another doesn't help make the distinction (hedging again, I am) Johnny Quick does make the choice to risk his life (as in the DCAU--or wherever--The Flash is always the world's conscience) and I seem to remember that Batman left the "abort" function active on the bomb, just in case Owlman lacked the courage of his convictions. That's at least Batman Begins-level morality (though killing a person who has a train who turns water into fear undoubtedly deserves to die) for sure.
Hm. Certainly room for debate. :)
I was more bothered by the fact that by the time the Marines actually arrive it's already over: the Syndicate's down to half-strength, they're surrounded by superheroes and they've lost their trump card. I didn't see the point in having President Deathstroke turn up in a tank just to gloat. If they'd saved the League from being defeated, at least you'd have some sense of victory for the oppressed people... but that doesn't happen.
To an extent, sure, but it still came off as being a bit too easy, especially given the size and scale of this version of the Syndicate.
Fair enough, and I did like his nihilistic approach to the question of parallel worlds - not quite sure why an egomaniac like Superwoman would go along with it, but what I really wanted to know is whether we're supposed to see Owlman as Bruce Wayne. Batman clearly refers to him as if they're doubles, but... well, are they? It seems like a small thing, but a bit more characterization really would've made the difference for me.
I did see quite a few links to the Timm/Diniverse: Hawkgirl's absence and the reconstruction of the Watchtower fits nicely with the aftermath of the Thanagarian invasion, and the B-lister "membership drive" at the end is probably meant to lead into "Justice League Unlimited". Not quite sure how to rationalize Hal Jordan, given that he's the only character who was never introduced in the DCAU... but I think that's the only real point of conflict.
The thing about Johnny Quick, though, is that he only agrees to do it because Batman lies to him. He tricks an enemy into committing suicide, to keep his own teammate alive (and oh lordy, I'm betting the Wally/Bruce slashgirls had a field day with that one). As for "Batman Begins"... Nolan probably should've settled for dousing Ra's with the fear gas and calling it a day? Because it's a bit twee of him to refrain from killing the Joker after leaving his last archenemy to die (and, in this specific instance, I don't see the difference between killing him outright and refusing to save him).
Well, it's probably there to underlie that Lex's plan has succeeded, and he's inspired the people to stand up to the Syndicate. It may be a bit too much like gilding the lily, but, well . . .you go with what you have.
Probably so. But then--we've only got 75 minutes, and considering the buzz it got, hopefully a sequel. While we're waiting (hopefully not in vain) this moment compels me to echo what TvTropes said: What the hell is going on with Power Ring in this movie? He has a really strange arc that's mostly happening off-screen.
My explanation for Superwoman's behaviour is that she's Evil Mary Marvel, and when you give a young, sociopathic, immature girl limitless power, you're probably deranged enough to where your boyfriend proposing the collapse of all existence gets you all tingly, and thus, not playing on the same level as all of us. :) As to Owlman . . .it's hard to say. His actions read very Batman-ish, so we're certainly led to think that way . . .
I think Hal might have popped in in that JLU 2-parter with Chronos, but I'm not 100% on that. I think in interviews the creators said that about 80% of the original script survived, but that leaves some room for deviation. So it could be read as a bridge between the two series . . .but just as equally not. Which is either leaving it up to the individual or being damn wishy-washy. :)
But he does seem eager to step up, when Batman comes up with the whole "Cosmic Treadmill" dealie, which indicates that he's not a complete jerkass like Ultraman. Owlman, and Superwoman. In fact, he says he won't allow his world to be destroyed, and accepts that it's dangerous. I'm still finessing, of course, but it's not a completely bald-faced lie, I don't think.
As to Batman not-killing . . .he sure seems to do a lot when they translate him over to other media at times, don't they?
True... and in fairness, it's not that I thought it was poorly done, just that I would've liked to see something a bit more unconventional - it ended up being uncomfortably similar to their takedown of the Justice Lords, in that they're the heroic liberators who basically save the world simply by locking up some supervillains.
I didn't actually notice that the first time around - but yes, there's definitely something there. I wouldn't even know where to start guessing, though...
Except that Owlman's plan would kill her too - that's the bit I found odd. She's a raging egomaniac, why would she be willing to sacrifice her life for a philosophical gesture?
You'd think they'd favor creating links to the series, if only to maintain a level of interest in the DCAU for the sake of future projects.
I saw that as self-preservation; had he refused, Owlman would have detonated the bomb and they'd all die anyway.
To my recollection, the only movie where he didn't kill one of his adversaries was "Batman and Robin" - they're almost always indirect deaths (ie: tying the Joker to a gargoyle, tricking Penguin into falling down a skylight, causing Two-Face to plummet to his death by throwing coins in the air) but he's still the cause. I suppose as long as he isn't slitting people's throats with Batarangs, the Powers That Be are fine with karmic payback...
The problem is, what else can you really do, though? I think they carefully threaded the needle and made sure that Lex was at the forefront of things, so it wasn't too Justice Lords-y, but . . .I dunno. It's a fight between Justice League and eeeevil Justice League. You can layer subtext on there, but it's an iffy thing (as Earth-2 proved)at best.
Yeah, and it's hard to reconcile with every else he does--as he seems to have no trouble mixing it up with the League in the final battle.
I'm not sure. Bear in mind we're trying to psychoanalyze a character that threatened to rape Batman and broke one of his ribs. Most of what she gets up to in this movie seems to be a mean sort of narcissism like pulling the legs off of spiders just to see them squirm.
Maybe, but probably the feeling is after 14 or so years they'd done all they could do with the DCAU and since each video's done by a different team anyways and it would be very hard to maintain consistency with that kind of structure.
Maybe so--it can be read equally both ways. :)
Well, it's kind of an echo back to his "carrying a gun days"--frequently early Batman villains died in rather ugly ways with Batman quipping over their death throes rather than, y'know saving their lives. So it's either a reversion to basics or a violation of the character, depending on which version of the character you subscribe to.
Oh, I realize there are practical limitations to how far the story could've gone... I think I'm just at a point now where understanding those limitations isn't enough for me anymore. I want to see active resistance to the conventions, however unrealistic that may be given the franchise and the medium in question. It probably doesn't help that I just finished reading David Mack's "The Sorrows of Empire", a Mirror Universe Trek novel that is completely unapologetic about being on the flip-side of the moral spectrum.
As I said, I'm not sure I have a practical solution; it turned out pretty much the way I expected it to turn out, which is really the most damning thing I can say about it. I would've liked to be surprised.
Maybe it's Johns' "Hal Jordan Is Always Good In All Things Everywhere" bleeding through?
And that's precisely the problem: if you're deliberately cruel and get off watching others suffer, you're probably not going to follow a course of action that'll annihilate you long before you get to watch the rest of the Multiverse implode. It's really a quibble at this point, but still...
That's true, especially given how poorly some of the post-League movies have been...
I might've reacted so strongly because it felt like apologia - if you read it as Johnny making a heroic sacrifice, it's a member of the Crime Syndicate not being as bad as you'd think. They never shied away from depicting characters like Darkseid or Brainiac as irredeemably evil, why start now?
But if you subscribe to Batman's Golden Age counterpart, shouldn't he be groping and spanking little boys? ;)
Fair enough--and certainly, if anyone in comics had the desire to do it (er, maybe I shouldn't give them the idea) one could get a lot of mileage out of telling a "Crisis on Two Earths" from the villains' point of view--here they had everything under control, and these asshole interlopers from a parallel world invade with the intention of forcing their Earth to do things The Way They Were Meant To Be.
On the flip side of that . . .maybe you have to play to the traditional convention first, then blow it up next time?
I can understand a certain disappointment with it, but I sometimes liken these things to opera--everyone knows all the plots, what you're watching is the performance. That's a glib defence, but . . .all I got tonight. :)
I have a plan to write up LEGION OF THREE WORLDS someday, and in that write-up I will explain why Geoff John frustrates the hell out of me, because he comes up with rather brilliant small bits and then does these clunky, obvious big beats that leave a terrible taste in my mouth.
We can at least agree she shouldn't have broken Batman's rib, right? Batman, like No. 6, never falls for the honey trap, and apparently has a smoke grenade for every occasion. ;)
I am completely at a loss for why PUBLIC ENEMIES needed to be adapted as a movie. I wish someone would explain it to me. :)
Well, the only defence I have for it is that across three universes, the Flash is the "heart" of the Justice League, and every version, to some extent or other, serves that function in their league. There's some precedent for it--at the beginning of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS for like, two panels, Ultraman kinda becomes Superman at the moment of his death. Kind of like rising to the occasion?
If I did my name would be Frank Miller, wouldn't it? ;)
Now, see, that'd be an idea I'd find refreshing simply because it hasn't been done often: even "Earth-2" skimped a bit on the world-building, aside from casual mentions of President Benedict Arnold and such. But telling a story where the ostensible "heroes" are the Invading Force and the villains have to rally against them? Not the most original scenario but it's certainly a step above what we're getting nowadays.
Oh, certainly - but I'd argue the traditional conventions have been both played and played out by now. Even if Co2E isn't the Timm/Dini universe, it certainly expects the viewer to have some kind of prior knowledge regarding DC, and that probably includes the typical cliches involved. Why not push forward now while there's still some kind of interest in an animated DC?
No, I see where you're coming from - and like I said, it's not that I think the film fails the way, say, Frank Miller's "Spirit" failed. It's more that I find myself wishing they could've stepped just a bit further outside the box, that would've turned an okay movie into a great movie.
I've always thought Johns' weakness was his nostalgia: he can tell good stories, but more often than not he tends to get distracted by his yen for the Silver Age and then he's caught up in retcons and retreads, all while utterly failing to actually resurrect the comics of his youth as they actually were.
Oh, I don't know: he gets hot for Talia every time she puts a bullet in him, so maybe it was more of a "right idea, wrong time" thing. :)
I'm still stuck on that Doomsday movie that started adapting "The Death of Superman" only to stop about ten minutes in and do something else altogether.
I could accept that... except Johnny Quick isn't the Flash. More to the point, he's not even Wally West.
Easy way to test that possibility: write a story with a female character who is NOT a prostitute, and you may leave here alive. :)
Well, it's an idea certainly worth exploring. One wonders if the will to let anything that gonzo be tried would be allowed in this day and age . . .
That would be sensible, but since when do the holders of the keys to this particular kingdom ever do anything even approaching sensible?
That makes sense, and I also thought it could have done with a bit more time and thought put into them. But. It's a Warner Premiere movie, and these are strictly limited in terms of budget and time and they are what they are. I think they're looked at as product first and movies second, really and that some of them end up being "good" can be, at best, a lucky accident.
Every now and again, Johns can apply his love for Silver Age-y stuff to something that works--the first Hawkman retcon he did, for instance, and most of his Green Lantern stuff (everything except his love for Hal Jordan) presents an interesting spin on things using the bits and bobs lying around. When he turns the clock back full stop and has no idea what to do with it after that--Flash: Rebirth--that's where the problems come in.
Man, if I had a nickel for every time my ex did--wait, overshare. Yeah, Batman's proclivities get a little more worrying the closer you look. This is why, I suspect, I have close friends who are sexually attracted to him.
I have yet to see that. People tell me I should, for that exact reason--it starts out one way and goes utterly gonzo.
Well, yeah, but Superwoman isn't Wonder Woman either, and yet there are similarities, despite being Evil Mary Marvel. So . . .yeah. :)
You're reading mine now. There aren't . . .many . . .hooker characters, I think. :)
Well, that's the problem, isn't it? For all that the Big Two like to pride themselves on outgrowing the Silver Age and embracing modernity and experimental storytelling, in some ways they're just as narrow-sighted and conservative as ever. Which certainly contributes to our current apathy, I think. Mind you, experiments can fail - "Identity Crisis" comes to mind - but at least you can say something about it.
Exactly! It's still about telling "safe" stories, the kind that will appeal to as wide a demographic as possible. And the result is almost always mediocre.
I tend to agree with Al Kennedy on this: both Johns and Didio tend to indulge in the fanboyism that everything matters, that you can't know or understand heroes without being exposed to as much of their histories as possible. And that bleeds into Johns' writing, because even with his successful retcons the man just never knows when to stop. It also doesn't help that having championed the return of Silver Age icons like Hal Jordan and Barry Allen, he hasn't done much to make them interesting to modern audiences.
Which Batman, though? I mean, attraction to Christian Bale I can understand, not so much Adam West. :)
The end result isn't worth it, though. The divergence just takes you back to the status quo again. At least "The Death of Superman" had some lasting implications for Metropolis (ie: the new Superboy, etc.)
See, that's the sort of thing I would've liked to see in more detail: whether the Syndicate members really fulfill the same functions in the team even if they're not the same people...
I'm finishing the first book tonight - let's just say I chalked the sexbots up to First Outing Jitters. ;)
Well, there's nothing wrong with using the tools of the Silver Age--if you think it can be done, yeah, give it a try. It's when you decide "Nope, everything needs to stay right here" (see One More Day) that you basically shackle your creativity.
I agree with y'all too. I think the idea of there being a whole legacy of Flashes is just awesome, I do. But to enjoy that I don't necessarily need Barry Allen back, especially as now that he's here there's been no great story which justified undoing his death in Crisis. I love the idea of long stories hero histories. That doesn't necessarily mean I need to have every bit of it shoved down my throat.
She didn't specify. She just said, in the words of Wonderella, he "juices her like a cranapple." I really don't know what to say. :)
For all the crap "Daeth of Superman" got, the two following stories were really good, I thought, and played out on a nice big canvas what happens to Metropolis when Superman's gone, and then when the 4 Supermen came in and they were all aspects of Superman, it was cool to see how that played out.
It would answer a few questions, wouldn't it? The notion that even Evil Opposite Justice Leagues have some sort of common thread that connects every version of the League together is intriguing, if a little "A is A." ;)
Yeah, that was . . .well, pending your comments, I'll tell you why it seemed like a good idea at the time and why, thanks to the rise of The Question Which Shall Not Be Asked, it ended up being something I should really have soft-pedaled. I think I bring it up in one of the short stories (wherein Kienan meets Vain and Mirage for the first time) and then I never bring up the sexbots thing again.
But using the tools of the Silver Age inevitably lead to writers using the mentality of the Silver Age as well... and for better or worse, the collective readership has grown beyond that. Even Johns doesn't seem to have figured out how to make his Silver Age heroes interesting to a modern audience, especially since they already had heroes they could relate to in characters like Bart Allen or Kyle Rayner.
And not to push my love of Starman too far, but really, that's how it's done, you know? Yes, we know Ted Knight was the first Starman, and he had all those wacky adventures in the '60s, but it's Jack's time. And we can have some flashback issues, we can have some legacy-themed storylines, but don't put the old man back in the spandex when you have a perfectly worthy successor already established.
Okay, now I really hope she wasn't talking about Adam West. :)
Especially because, apart from Steel, you really couldn't be sure that they weren't all aspects of Superman: Superboy could've easily been Clark Kent's id, the Cyborg his pragmatism, and the Eradicator his dark side given flesh. I'd always thought the whole "fifth option" was a cop-out, because it meant that for all intents and purposes nothing had actually changed.
Agreed, it's a bit limiting, but in the absence of a more concrete explanation that doesn't require coincidence, I suppose I'd go for it. :)
In fairness, I probably would've reacted better to that if I weren't still smarting over the S8 Buffy comic getting hit with a bad case of Brad Meltzer and going down faster than Britney Spears on a Motley Crue tour bus... I'm a bit tired of the whole "sex = POWAR!!!" motif at the moment.
Not necessarily--It's just that's the overall tendency among comic writers who want things to stay the same and yet also want their superhero comics to grow up with them, well . . .that's how you end up with bloody Geoff Johns and Alex Ross.
Man, right? I remember when JSA was all about that right when it first hit the stands--there were a few JSAers who were longstanding team members, but by and large a lot of them were legacy appointments and at the time, it was one of the most exciting and vital books on the stands that could swim in DC's historical waters without bogging down.
I'm thinking not, but this was a line of inquiry I didn't go very far with as, well, the whole idea I found difficult to get me head round.
The wheels do come off the wagon about the time the Cyborg wants to build a great big engine where Coast City was for what could be best termed "frighteningly little reason." But that little bit before the plot kicked back in really gave you an intriguing launching pad, and really did an amazing job of selling the new Superboy. Despite his haircut, too.
I HEARD about that and . . .man, how does Brad Meltzer keep getting work? You can do stuff with the whole "sex as power" thing but when you literalize it to that degree it's just . . .stupid.
Also, he plagiarised the whole from an Adam Hughes comic, so fuck him anyways.
And Barry Allen and Hal Jordan and Ray Palmer in 2010 as well, I suppose.
And now, based on what I've been hearing, it's one part continuity dig and two parts Magog vessel, as if anyone still cares about Magog now that "Kingdom Come" is a complete impossibility...
Best to leave well enough alone, then. :)
I vaguely recall the Cyborg's motivation as being more or less along the lines of "Superman didn't save me when I was in trouble so now I'm going to murder everyone he ever loved and a whole bunch of people who had nothing to do with it."
Which is on par with everything else Brad Meltzer's done, so at least he's consistent...
And Ronnie Raymond and . . .oh, it's too bloody depressing to think about.
Well, there's a certain bent appeal in the fact that the JSA split up into a Magog-led faction who decided the JSA should be more proactive because the idea of Magog as a 90's manque just wasn't clear enough yet . . .
It could have led to dressing up, and I just wasn't ready. ;)
Which makes him just like every other DC villain, now, doesn't it? It's weird, but the more people DC villains (or any supervillain kills, really) the less of an impact it seems to make.
And yet, because he writes "real" books, obviously he's more brilliant than anyone else writing these here funnybooks.
Seriously, do they even have any non-white superheroes left in the DCU at this point?
See, that could work if DC had the balls to just make "Kingdom Come" happen already, as it's really the only justification Magog has for existing in the first place.
Just remember: when doing the Bat-tusi it's important that you rotate your knees. :)
Well, it's that old bit about a million being a statistic, isn't it? Especially since comics never have a sense of scale with this sort of thing: vaporizing millions of people and an entire city is something that changes your whole society, forever. Just look at the effect 9/11 has had throughout the years.
Exhibit A: Sue Dibny. :)
Mister Terrific, and . . .uhm, Amanda Waller doesn't count, really, does she?
I would actually have preferred that Kingdom Come exist more as a self-contained event as it's pretty diabolical in spots (Look kids! If you don't get that Superman equals Jesus, Alex Ross will do a panel with him carrying a long piece of wood and wearing a beard!) and hasn't aged terribly well.Like "Days of Future Past" locking the DCU into any one kind of future is probably a bad idea.
Yes--Legion of Superheroes, I know, I know. :)
If Batman had lasted long enough to guest on Soul Train that may have been more awesome than TVs could handle. That said, the girl before her had a thing for Kyle Reese, so . . .yeah. Even more problematic than Batman! :)
Yeah, and the problem when you deal with big casualty numbers is . . .well, the mind doesn't really process all the accumulated tragedy in an abstract number very well, does it? That's why incalculable universes of people died in Crisis and it's hard to get our head around it. Supergirl going toe to toe with the Anti-Monitor or the Flash racing himself to death? That we can have a reaction to.
"Like a circle in a spiral/like a wheel with a wheel/never-ending like the tiny footprints in my brain . . ."
Only when she's kicking ass. So yes. :)
Maybe, but at least it'd represent some kind of progress in a direction that roughly resembles "forward". And unlike DoFP, KC doesn't have to be completely apocalyptic - IIRC, there's a sense of renewal at the end that you don't really get with the X-Men story.
"Legion of Superheroes" keeps falling into narrative traps, though - too many characters, or too many useless subplots, or too many thousand-year-old connections that don't make any sense.
I can see that - cute blonde virgin soldier shows up, sweeps you away, puts his life on the line for you, teaches you how to fight and admits he's completely in love with you. Much better than the rich guy who makes his teenage ward wear green panties and transparent stockings in public. ;)
Exactly - it's the specific casualties we remember as readers, not the whole Worlds Will Live, Worlds Will Die line. Torching the setting isn't as powerful as seeing a beloved character go out fighting. Or not, as the case may be.
Oh, well done, sir. Well done indeed. :)
As a longtime Suicide Squad fan, I will always--always--stand up for The Wall. One of the few things that came from Legends that was any damn good.
Yeah, that I will admit--it ends on quite an "up" note (except for the trade, which tacks on that ending with Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman that's just . . .no.) but by and large, I think it made it's point that "the 90's are not necessarily the way we should be going." Of course, you're right--using it as a springboard to roll out the next generation of DC heroes would have been fine (and as I understand it, was the plan, initially) but instead led to . . .Hypertime. Thanks, guys.
Well, you're kind of stuck either way. Start from scratch with a new concept? The old Legion fans despise it. Retstart in the current continuity and try to build everything again from the ground up? The old Legion fans hate it, casual fans wonder why you're doing the same stories again. Run the clock back to the early 80's? Hardline Legion fans probably still won't like it, and the rest of us are gently indifferent.
And mother of God those kind of moments are thin on the ground lately. The best we get now is that every time someone involved with Spider-Man is in trouble, it's back to that damned bridge which only evokes older, better stories and doesn't really give you much of a reason to care about the immediate problem.
Maybe they should re-title Identity Crisis to The Jean Loring Affair?
I just wish they'd put her in something halfway readable in the current DCU - ever since they dropped Batwoman, I can't find a single title in the core universe that's worth reading. Not one.
Oh yes, that new ending was all sorts of weird. Perhaps a bit too "up" given the tone of the overall story. And Hypertime... well, every time someone explains it to me, they say "Basically, everything happened, retcons didn't actually erase anything so much as move it sideways" to which I reply "Isn't that what any reader would've thought regardless?"
Maybe the answer is to stop courting the old Legion fans, then. There was a brief moment when Mark Waid's run started (was that... two? Three reboots ago?) where it looked like he was going somewhere very interesting, and then the new Supergirl took over the book and it was Jeph Loeb's version, and that was one poisoned chalice too many.
TV Tropes should really have a page on Recursive Xeroxing: you make a copy of a copy of a copy and eventually the page'll go blank. Spider-Man's a perfect example, they've used so many callbacks and gimmicks over the past decade that I honestly can't remember why I liked him in the first place.
Heh. :)
There's none for me, now, since they've basically killed Power Girl for me.
I think it was basically a way of saying "Hey guys! If you didn't like this plot or this status quo change, you can ignore it and it'll be just as valid, really."
It's good advice--so good, in fact, I immediately ignored Hypertime.
Well, you're never going to get a clean break from the Levitz Legion fanboys because they're either buying the book or they're the ones writing it. But then, Legion fans have been dragging the book down for nigh on 20 years now ever since the Bierbaums tried to drag every harebrained fanfic idea into canon.
. . .someone should add that in, as its the leitmotif that will eventually sing comics to their deathless sleep forever.
I can say, as someone who really never was that crazy about Spider-Man that all these attempts to make him more accessible and interesting to the casual fan . . .have basically driven me away like someone was shelling me.
Oh, give her six months, they'll reboot her again eventually. :) She seems to be one of those characters that practically invites reinvention on a regular basis...
As is so often the case, it took a team of writers and a ridiculously convoluted quasi-metaphysical Event to reiterate what Alan Moore managed to put across in eight words: "This is an imaginary story... aren't they all?"
There's something odd about this particular book, though: usually when you have a character or a franchise that's stuck in near-constant reboots, there's some template each successive writer goes back to (ie: Supergirl, Ghost Rider, etc.) But that doesn't seem to be the case with the LSH, because every revamp seems to take a different, if equally unsuccessful, approach.
The sooner the better, IMO - genuine change is long overdue in that industry.
Likewise, I'm not a huge Spider-Man fan myself, but I certainly appreciated the fact that he started out as an awkward high school teenager and spent most of the Jemas/Quesada era as a married high school teacher and an even more successful superhero. Progress, right? I think that's part of the reason "Spider-Girl" attracted so many die-hard fans too: you got to see Peter Parker grow up, and watch his daughter be a hero - not the same hero, but a hero nevertheless.
I dunno. I think she's probably doomed to another attempt to "fix" inconsistencies in her origin (that don't need fixing anymore) once Winick finishes running the book into the ground.
Yeah! Because nothing says "the magic and boundless imagination of superhero comics" like a tortured, overly literal and laboured story that slowly and painstakingly delineates something patently obvious.
Well, the problem is that LSH fandom is like Christianity, in that you have a bunch of different denominations and none of them seem to be willing to settle on a specific moment in the book's hsitroy they can all get behind. So you have the Silver Age sect that only wants to see Silver Age style stories, the Levitz-era fanatics, who only want to see Paul Levitz writing, and even (god help us all) there are the 5 Years Later fans, who want to see all of that ("all of that" being long-held fanfic theories dumped into canon by and large) Needless to say, all this squabbling means no LSH relaunch ever really gets traction because the audience is irrevocably split.
It's been something I've been waiting for for ages, that's for sure . . .
Yeah, it's kind of a puzzling thing, as Spider-Man was basically a soap-opera with superheroes in it (as in its glory years, there was as much going on with the supporting cast as there was super hero punchy punchy) and the continuing progression of the storylines was a big hook. By freezing that in amber, you lose what made him successful in the first place.
Most likely. I think it speaks to a weak central premise: the more I think about it, the less I can successfully summarize what a definitive Power Girl story should be.
I'm actually pleased if a writer doesn't misappropriate Yeats' "The Second Coming". That's got to be a low point.
Ohh my. That's probably even less appealing to new readers than your average, baggage-free series...
Exactly. If it wasn't an even split between Spider-Man the person and Spider-Man the superhero, it certainly leaned more towards character dynamics: his friends, his love interests, Aunt May finding out his secret identity... Those are the stories people remember.
I think she's like the Scarlet Witch in that respect--there's no chance to do a definitive story because so much of her history has been tied up in "fixing" the character.
I have promised myself that if I write anything that echoes that damn poem in the name of a cheap dramatic point, I will cut off one of my fingers. *L* I'd much rather reference William Carlos Williams' "Little Red Wheelbarrow" poem or something like that.
You can see why it's so radioactive a concept, eh? I wonder if the solution isn't to dump the name completely, tie it closer to the Justice League and the whole legacy thing and called it the Justice Legion. That still wouldn't make everything happy, but DC's current model is "Try the same thing over and over and hope it works this time," which is insane.
Yeah, and trying to recreate it or otherwise capture lightning in a bottle again isn't going to help. After all, it was perfectly OK for Flash Thomspon to evolve into something other than "jock Douchebag" eventually, and if the supporting cast can evolve but the main character is locked in place . . .
Perhaps, with the caveat that the Scarlet Witch tends to fare much better when rebooted for other media; Power Girl supposedly had the benefit of "clean" reboots at least twice (the Crises), and neither of those stuck either...
I'd prefer "This Is Just To Say" myself. :)
I'm rather sure it's actually the definition of insanity, which explains so very much about DC. :)
Hell, Aunt May got over her damn wheatcakes phase eventually. Speaking of which, one of the TV Tropers made a very interesting observation about Spider-Man in the "Strangled by the Red String" page, concerning a much more problematic undertone to the whole Satanic Annulment concept that no one's considered: if Quesada's put his fat foot down regarding Peter Parker being a married man, any romantic relationship he has from this point on is basically doomed to stagnation. Which begs the question of why you'd bother pairing him up at all, let alone with three women simultaneously...
Well, the Scarlet Witch fares better, because one always goes with the easiest solution which is to dump out all of it and start from scratch. As to Power Girl, well, when your Big Idea to fix things is to tie her to bloody Arion of all people . . .you kind of deserve to fail. :)
I'll have to look that one up. :)
Well yes, but in DCs case it needs elaboration involving artificial arms and also killing people dead cats.
Oh, I pegged it right away--if you already annul the one long-term relationship the character had, it's no great logical leap to assume that every relationship that threatens to become a long-term plot element will never happen, which negates why anyone should bother in the first place, and wrecks even the tiny notion that comics readers should care about even the Illusion of Change.
On the contrary: there's always a limit as to how far writers can reconfigure the Scarlet Witch, if only because continuity demands some basic adherence to her history; it's Power Girl who gets the benefit of truly starting from scratch, but that doesn't seem to help much.
The man took a note about eating his girlfriend's plums (not a euphemism) and turned it into poetry. And everyone accepts it as such. Well-played, Mr. Williams. :)
And steely vigilante warriors having "bladder spasms".
And that's precisely the problem: it's not that Quesada had some massive fan-hatred against MJ and thought Peter should've married Gwen or Felicia, it's that he thinks the very concept of marriage "ages" Spider-Man to such an extent that he can't be a superhero anymore. Which is so wrong and backwards and immature, on so many levels...
Does it? It seems like her current Crazy Bitch mode is based more on coming up with an idea and finding a few random continuity bits that allegedly "justify" it far after the fact. Read it now knowing what you know, etc.
I've never given plums a chance. Nor
poetry, much really. ;)
Yeah, uh . . .wow, I have no words except "that was fucking stupid" and also "That is exactly what I expect from DC comics circa 2010. They are diligently working, month in and month out, to make Jeph Loeb look like Alan fucking Moore."
Well, as I've said before, it misunderstands the whole hook of Spider-Man to begin with--that it evolved and expanded its focus over time, and if you're going to hobble the concept, then why bother? Then again, Iron Man still has superpowers, none of which can convince me Matt Fraction is Grant Morrison, so yeah.
Well, that's Bendis' MO with just about anything he does - I like to think Heinberg will do better if he ever gets around to it.
I'm much more partial to narrative too. :)
If there was ever any doubt that editors at the Big Two are sleeping at the wheel... well, honestly, I refuse to believe someone who works on these books for a living read this "script" pounded out by that sleazoid Smith, understood what it meant, and gave it the go-ahead. Because that's really rock-bottom.
Granted, it's not quite as bad as the time he grew bone claws, became an avatar of a Spider Spirit, moved to Avengers Tower and outed himself to the world all within... what was it, six months? So not entirely unrecognizable at the moment, but I haven't seen anything to convince me to start reading Spider-books.
Hopefully I will not be on Social Security by the time this rolls around, but knowing Heinberg . . .
I tried poetry, once. All evidence of this has now been burned. :)
If only we had someone above the writers, huh? Someone who might find mistakes or bad ideas and . . .and . . .yes, "edit," them out! That would be AWESOME. What would we call these mysterious people, who are obviously as mythical as the Kirin and just about as tangible.
Well, if you take me as an example of someone who's supposed to be the target audience for Spider-Man--hasn't ever read it regularly, has some small affection for the character and might read it with the right hook . . .ideally Brand New Day should be the fresh start I need to get in on it. And I have run a bloody mile from the damn things.
Sadly, I can't think of anyone else who did these characters justice in the interrim - certainly not Chris Yost's torture porn or Zeb Wells' "safe" approach.
As they say, you gotta go with what works. :)
The legends say such entities existed in ancient Persia, long ago... but only the sands may know for sure. :)
Precisely. Take a random person off the street and ask him what he'd think of a married superhero, he'd say "Like Mr. and Mrs. Incredible? 'Cause they were cool." It can be done, provided your EiC and writers have the emotional maturity of, say, Baby Sinclair.
True, I suppose. I just wish Heinberg didn't approach writing comics like I approach getting out of bed on Saturdays--with muted enthusiasm and much procrastination that ends with me getting up several hours after I should have done.
Had any of it survived, people would say "He died alone, and damn if he didn't deserve to." It was somewhat . . .Vogon-ish.
Only two trunkless legs exist now. ;)
I know, right? And Incredibles probably made more money than the entire run of Brand New Day, when you get down to it, which shows me it's a problem of perception. But not my perception. :)
Well, he's admitted to being a fanboy, which - in this day and age - counts for more enthusiasm than I have. But he's also part of that Hollywood group that have their bums kissed so often and so thoroughly that they think deadlines are the black bars separating panels.
Ah, only third-worst, then. :)
And on the pedestal these words appear: "My name is Brevoort, editor of editors: look on my works, ye reader, and despair!" Which, of course, we do. :)
The more I think about it, the more I become convinced that it's just plain unhealthy - the moment you literally freeze your superheroes in amber is the moment you're admitting these characters have no real future, and will never possess the kind of emotional maturity needed to have a normal relationship.
Mind you, there are versions of Peter Parker where he'd have been better off alone - Maguire's comes to mind (pining after MJ is all well and good the first time around, but he really should've gotten over that in the second) - but the original has been married longer than I've been reading comics. I've never known comic book Spider-Man to not be married. So why would I be interested in regression now?
Very true. I'd like to put Heinberg and Joe Madureria in a pit and see who could fight it out in Procrastinator Thunderdome, but I'd never live long enough to see who throws the first punch. :)
Thank God for Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings, is all I'm saying. Sometimes the bar is set right where it needs to be. :)
Oh lord do I ever. The funny thing, about the time of Busiek's run on Avengers, I remember Brevoort was not insane, and yet now I would probably trust Marvel to, let's say, Baron Harkonnen more than him. :)
Yeah, and these retrograde moves always irretrievably damage the characters. Look at Cyclops in the wake of Jean Grey returning. It was so important to have the original X-Men--all of them, so go stand in the corner, Dazzler--that it was consider perfectly fine that Cyclops, y'know ran out on his wife and newborn baby to hang out with his formerly dead girlfriend. And that one I can't even blame on Quesada.
Because Quesada said so, which is . . .well, a feeble answer. Quesada thought Norman Osborn giving Gwen the ol' Goblin Fingerblast was a good idea too . . .
That would truly be the most uneventful fight in history. :)
Between her and Stephenie Meyer, every bad poet and writer can console themselves with the knowledge that they're not the absolute worst in their respective professions...
Really, the only nice thing one can say about Tom Brevoort is that he's not Mike Marts. And really, that's not saying much at all.
If his wife had been anyone but Madelyne Pryor, I'd agree - but since she was a copy of that dead girlfriend anyway, and deep down he'd always seen her as such, I didn't blame him for that. Writing out his infant son, though... that was a mistake. Bringing him back as Cable? Even worse. Like the Summers family tree wasn't enough of a warped bonsai-on-steroids at that point.
Precisely. When it comes to getting answers from the horse's ass... :)
It would be the Marvel No-Prize of fights, yes. :)
Yeah. For instance--I personally take great strength from the notion that even when I write something that's not up to snuff, at least I'm not Laurell K. Hamilton. :)
That's like saying "his brother was worse," innit? ;)
Yeah, and that was before Rachel came back and they added yet another brother and half-brother to things. It's always a sure sign of trouble when you just lard the hell out of someone's supporting cast in an effort to make them interesting.
. . .lift the tail first. ;)
Guest-starring Stan Lee as the announcer. :)
Not by a long shot: Kienan can actually get out of trouble without having an orgy. ;)
After a fashion. I'm rather sure readers would've dropped to the ground and kissed Rob Liefeld's feet if he'd replaced Chuck Austen on Uncanny X-Men. Just goes to show there's always a bigger prat out there.
What's especially frustrating about the Summers Family Bonsai is that they could've disentangled at least part of it - one could opine that in the ten years Scott and Jean had been married (from X-Men #30 to the end of Morrison's run) they should've conceived Rachel; at least then she'd just be a future version of herself rather than a future version of a child in an alternate timeline who doesn't and won't ever exist.
"Hey, True Beleiver, let's get ready to RUMMMMMBLLLLLE!"
And you'll never know how GLAD I am of that. Nope, people settle them in the more traditionally-accepted fashion--ultraviolence. *L*
I know I would have. Rob's terrible, but at least he's a well-known quantity, and God bless him, he writes and draws the way he does because he really does think it's the absolute coolest stuff he can possibly imagine (I am not saying this is objectively "good," mind--it's just coming from a good place). If only everyone in comics had his enthusiasm coupled to their talents. I have no idea what the hell Austen was trying to accomplish, and I'm happier not thinking about it much.
I . . .yeah, you could, but honestly, Rachel's such a problematic character and I never really thought it worked. Rather I think what should have been done was something the vein of "Messiah Complex"--they conceive a child so powerful that its birth is seen as a branching point between two futures for mutantkind and there's a high probability that the child may be powerful enough to reverse-engineer its own creation. It would be a new way to go for sure.
"Heinberg's going for the box in the corner... it's a Wii! Madueira's distracted! EXCELSIORRRRRR!!!" :)
Well, it worked for Uma Thurman... :)
Well, he seemed utterly convinced that he was telling stories of Great Redeeming Social Value - mind you, to this day I'm not sure how he got that from exploding communion wafers and bodies made of urine.
Of course, by now they've all but spelled out that she's the Phoenix, thus proving that where the X-Men are concerned, what goes around tends to come around long before it's missed. :)
Marvel NBA Jam needs to happen right now. :)
That and being the object of Tarantino's foot fetish. :)
It's sort of like when Shadowhawk was meant to be a serious look at someone struggling with AIDS, really--your heart may be in the right place, but the AIDS stuff is just a backdrop for a guy in a bird mask shooting a grappling hook through people's chests and snapping their spines.
Yeah. Of course, it remains to be see whether or not Hope will end up as another Jean or Rachel--just a generally unworkable character.
Of course, with our luck we'd probably end up with Marvel Space Jam. :)
At least she'll never have to see a podiatrist in her life. :)
I'd like to believe it's possible to tell those types of meaningful stories within the milieu of the superhero genre, but there are very few precedents that actually work - if it's not Green Arrow's "My Sidekick The Junkie" it's Skip Westcott, and if it's not that it's Hank Pym and so on.
It would be nice to give them the benefit of the doubt. But seriously, who are we kidding? :)
Diana, they will totally hear you, and we'll be in trouble if you keep on. ;)
Not a licenced one at any rate . . .
I would think if a good one would be possible, we would have seen one by now, and we haven't gotten close yet. Mind you, I would be happy to be proven wrong. I think it's one of those times where injecting "realism" into superhero comics ultimately kills it.
You know, it would be just our luck for them to stumble onto our blogs and that would be the one thing they'd pick up on. :)
You know, at first glance I was sure Miller's rewrite of Karen Page in "Born Again" was a cautionary tale worth telling - if you're Hollywood-bound, keep your feet on solid ground because you can get swept into a bad situation all too easily - but for that story to have any meaning, she should've either died or pulled herself out. Instead, as has become obvious in hindsight, what Miller meant to say was that she was a whore who needed a good man to save her. So much for social value. :)
It might be, but it'd just be on your blog. The Prattle is rigged for silent running. ;)
Yeah, that sure did turn out the be the leading edge of some ferocious misogyny, didn't it? And of course, as it's a Defining Story, people automatically assume everything should be written like that . . .
I like to think we've concentrated enough snark and criticism between us that any exposure to either of our blogs by Marvel/DC executives would result in a festive recreation of the Grail scene in "The Last Crusade". :)
Actually, we probably dodged a bullet there: Miller lost most of his credibility during the Sin City/Dark Knight Strikes Again years, so his work probably doesn't inform as much of the mainstream as it could have...
I have a feeling we're on a list somewhere, myself. Then again, is Abhay can get a story published, that's a sign of . . .something, even if it's only the plaintive note of a fiddle in the midst of the bonfire. :)
Well, I suppose we're lucky that he moved on to Hollywood where he can insult more people's intelligence in larger amounts, but we probably needed him to stride along with Michael Bay and Zack Snyder only a little more than I needed to be felt up by Big Van Vader (that is to say, not at all)
Abhay? Published? The hell you say. When did this happen?! :)
Better Big Van Vader than Darth Vader, I suppose. :) And if we're really going for the hat trick, we need to get Frank Miller in the same room as Uwe Boll and the Wachowskis, and let the universe sort itself out. :)
He did! He's living the dream!
Well, Big Van Vader had a cooler mask, I always thought. I'd love for that to happen, because I think a failure on that scale would be this perfect thing, beautiful in its ugliness, that would die in an instant, unable to sustain itself, because nothing tin can stay. ;)
Now I feel like Jessica Rabbit when she found out about the Dip. "Oh my God it's ABHAAAAYYYYYYY!!!" :)
Well, as Dark Helmet once said, you really can't breathe in that thing. :) I like to think a collaboration between those three would combine the quality of "Gigli" and the infamy of "Twilight". Or vice-versa, really.
Yeah, but who better to knock down the doors, really? Even if its just six pages constantly cropped differently of people talking about Dracula's penis, it is bound to not be boring.
I think I would actually want to see something like that. But only once, because twice would probably drive me insane. :)
I like to imagine DiDio okaying the story without actually knowing anything about Abhay, and once the word's out he goes and reads some of those Savage Critics columns. You can hear the Darth Vader Big No imitation from the moon. :)
Just imagine the cast of "Twilight" acting out the plot of "Waterworld" - if you're not worshipping Nyarlathotep after ten minutes, you're in the clear. :)
Didio? Acting without sufficient thought of the consequences? I can't possibly conceive of such a thing! ;)
Short of two morbidly obese geriatrics having sweaty, shameful sex while crying, I'm having a hard time imaging anything more grotesque than that description.
Perish the thought. :)
And even then, if you had to choose, I imagine we'd all go with the geriatrics...
I'd choose a loaded pistol, myself. Who I'd use it on would be decided in proportion to whatever would end the hurting fastest.
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